And The Word Was …divine!
- Image via Wikipedia
John 1:1 is probably the most debated Scripture in the Bible. Some Christians don’t believe Jesus is God (i.e. THE God) and describe him before his human birth as something from divine (including a divine “plan”) to simply “a” god. The controversy seems to arise out of the fact that the final clause in John 1:1 does not have the article before the word “God.” What these groups and other modern critics done seem to understand is, if the article were there, it would be a contradiction or an apparent error in the text. Notice:
John 1:1 Moffatt NT THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.
John 1:1 NWT In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
John 1:1 JMNT Within a beginning there was The Word (The Thought; The Collection of Thoughts; The Idea; The Reason; The Discourse; The Communication; The Verbal Expression). And the Word (the thought; the expression) was (and continued being) facing, directed and moving toward (or: with) God. And the Word (the thought; the idea; the reason; the expression) continued being God. [or: Originally the Word was existing and continued to be, and the Word was being projected toward God. And the Word, It was existing being God (idiomatically: And the Word was just what God was; And the Expression was an extension of Deity).]
John 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If the article were placed before the final clause above, saying “the Word was the God…” it would mean he was beside himself in the second clause, namely, “the Word (the God) was with or beside the God. This is an impossibility. John chose his words well, and they reveal the only way to say the Word is God and mean he is/was the same essence as God; or put another way: “what God was, the Word was.
Often those who disagree will point to Proverbs 8 and the story of the Wisdom personification to support their understanding that the Word was simply a “divine” angel (or plan etc.) or a “god.” Many go on to point to the Greek grammar and how the verse should be translated. The problem is other grammarians could be quoted to contradict the authorities quoted by those who seek to show Jesus is something less than God. Is there an answer for all this? Can a layman, for example, prove that Jesus is God or not, or are we left on our own to stumble through the truth, making choices as to the veracity and expertise of the so-called greats or experts in the fields of theology and Greek grammar?
Let me repeat, the crux of this controversy arises out of the fact that the article does not appear before the final clause of John 1:1. Are we able to draw any conclusions from the word of God itself? Is the Scripture alone able to show us what is true? I believe so, and the answer lies in consistency.
In the next seventeen verses following John 1:1, there are no less than four references to the God with whom the Word existed in the beginning. They are 1:6, 12, 13 and 18. Each one of these references to the God is not only without the article in the Greek manuscript from which the critics derive their argument, but in every case where the word God appears it is unanimously agreed the word refers to the God! The argument of the critics and certain groups of Christians is not consistent. What rule of grammar would be used in these verses to warrant their obvious reference to the God when the article is absent in the original Greek manuscript? Therefore, the presence or absence of the article in the original Greek manuscripts is not a conclusive argument that one may use to prove that Jesus is not THE God. Even the critics of the Deity of Jesus do not follow this rule in every case.
Contrariwise, the article is present in other references to Jesus. Among these are:
1. Matthew 1:23 Jesus’ name is Immanuel. The interpretation given is, “God with us.”
The article is present here and reveals that Jesus is the God with us.
2. John 20:28 After his resurrection, Jesus appeared to Thomas. At Jesus’ invitation to touch him, Thomas exclaimed: “My Lord and My God.”
The article is present and Thomas refers to Jesus as the God.
3. 1John 1:15 “…God is Light and in him is no darkness.” The article is present. That this represents Jesus is made plain from reading John 1:4-10. It is clearly stated here that the Light gave life to all men. John the Baptist bore witness to the Light; and the Light was about to come into the world (v.9) and is the true Light. Therefore, if the God is Light and Christ is the true Light, there should be no controversy in saying, “Jesus is the God!”
There is no question that the Scriptures teach us that there is only one God. I agree with those Christians among us who claim Jesus is not God. However, does the fact that there is only one God exclude any plurality within that one Deity? I have shown in other studies that there is evidence of plurality within the Deity in the Old Testament. In fact the very physical image which God created of himself is both the male and female—two people dwelling in unity (Genesis 1:26-27; Genesis 2:23-24).
To conclude, it is evident that there is no foundation for the argument that the presence of the article in the Greek text is an indication that the God mentioned is worthy of worship, while the absence of the article means that the deity under consideration is not worthy of worship. If this were a valid argument, why is the article omitted in so many New Testament references to our Father God, while many other Scripture references do have the article showing us Jesus is God? The argument, that Jesus is a god or divine (i.e. an angel or a divine plan etc.), but not the God is not consistent and just doesn’t make sense.
David
January 11, 2012 at 13:54
Maybe I’m not being very clear on this subject. I’m not trying to sound like Jesus is less than God because he is the son of the Almighty, so he has to hold the next highest rank next to God’s own obviously. What I am trying to say is, he is not one in the same person. Jesus has his own thoughts, opinions, and individuality. All those things does not make him any less than Father God (Jehovah or Yahweh), but the Father does have authority over His son Jesus. God gave all His authority & power to Jesus to use because that’s what loving Fathers do for their sons, but that doesn’t make him the One and only God Himself. God had to create His own son to be able to have a son to begin with. Jesus was created 1st before anything else. Jesus himself said “I am the alpha & omega, the beginning and the end.” That statement alone proves Jesus is not God himself because God Himself has no beginning or end because He always was and always will be. John 14: 9-14 is evidence that God the Father dwells within His son & Jesus dwells within his Father, but everything Jesus did, he did under his Father’s authority and will as stated in John 14: 9-14 (NIV)
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. This scripture clearly shows that God & Jesus do have their own individuality by Jesus’ statement that he does not speak under his own authority, but rather it is the Father. Obviously though by this scripture, they are sharing the same purpose by dwelling within each other spiritually, but not dwelling within each other physically. Like I said before, by our human reasoning & understanding, it only makes sense that they are two separate entities that are working as one. Being as ignorant as we are about God or what God is though, that would be putting limitations on God saying He can’t be this or can’t be that and we both know that God is limitless well beyond our knowledge and reasoning. Thank you for your responses and insight on this subject. I can’t honestly say I agree with all of it, but it did make me see some things in a different perspective meaning I didn’t disagree with all of it either. I suppose that’s a good thing because we as Christians are here for each other in growing in our faith. We just don’t always see eye to eye on the complexities of our faith, but hey that’s part of why we have to continue seeking the truth together so one day we will. God Bless you and your family Eddie and I really enjoy the blog you have. I’ll have to read other topics and respond to some if I have any thoughts or comments on them. Thanks again,
David
Ed Bromfield
January 11, 2012 at 18:42
Greetings David, and thank you for you kind regards toward me and my family. I appreciate it, perhaps more than you know. Obviously, we could continue in our discussion, but you seem to have implied that this was your final post to this subject. I try to permit those who discuss with me to have the final word, and usually this will take place by my merely not responding to their final posting. However, ours seems to have been an especially friendly “debate”, so I couldn’t let it stand without my own wishing you God’s blessings for you and your family as well. So, be blessed, my friend, with all the blessings of God—both you and yours.
Eddie
David
January 11, 2012 at 20:52
Thank you Eddie, I claim every Blessing I can get. I’m only 40, but there is plenty of years to learn more about the Lord. Actually I wouldn’t say this to be my final post on the subject because I always like to research a little more before I make attempts to leave a somewhat intelligent comment. I’ll always try to make each “debate” I have a friendly one. I’m not one who likes to have arguments lingering around or bad feelings about another fellow Christian. Finding ways to compromise has always been a little motto of mine. I honestly believe God doesn’t really want us to argue about who or what He is because the truth is we’ll never really know until we actually get to meet Him. I am truly looking forward to that day because I have so many questions I would like to ask…..someday at least after trying to live this life here the way He wants me to and doing what He has called me to do. I’m still praying and trying to figure out exactly what calling He has for me, but I suppose I’m not the only Christian seeking that answer. Thank you again Eddie & more Blessings to you & family.
David
January 10, 2012 at 10:43
Jesus only said in John 5:17 that his Father was at His work to this day & I too am working. He didn’t say he was equal to God, only that he was at work too, possibly meaning just doing his Father’s will, in John 5:18 it was the Jews who accused him of making himself equal with God, not Jesus. In John 10:30, that could be interpreted like a husband and wife are one meaning they both share the same purpose or goal not that they are the same person in body. I’m not trying to say Jesus is not divine or a deity because he is, but he is not God Almighty the Father. Hypothetically speaking, if God the Father was ever to retire, which He won’t of course, then yes Jesus would inherit his Father’s thrown and then be the Almighty himself because what is his Father’s in essence is his too. Jesus is only a representation of what God is and what He can do, but he himself is not God Almighty, he is the son of the Almighty. Jesus himself says that he only does what he sees his Father doing in John 5:19. How can he only do what he sees himself doing? It doesn’t make sense that he & his Father are the same person, if so then you’re saying that God has multiple personalities? I don’t think so, I honestly believe that the scriptures have been revised and re-translated so many times that it confuses those who read them now and I don’t believe God meant for the Bible to confuse us the way it does. Satan knows and understands the Bible far more than any human does & I wouldn’t doubt that he had a hand in helping modern day people revise the translations in order to confuse us. He is the deceiver you know. That’s a different subject anyway. I believe Jesus to be my Lord and Savior, but I don’t believe him to be the Almighty Himself. I understand as a Christian that I do have to bow down to Jesus because Jesus did say in John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Again, if he was God Himself, then wouldn’t he have said “No one comes to me except through me?” Doesn’t make sense. Jesus does reference God as our Father too when he teaches us how to pray in John 6: 5-15 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name, your kingdom come,your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one’ For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. There is only one God, Jesus himself said so in John 17: 1-5 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Again, if he is God Himself, why would he have prayed like this? Doesn’t make sense again. I don’t deny that Jesus was with his Father at the beginning of time, but I still don’t believe that they are the same person in one body just because there are too many scriptures that proves they’re not and not enough to prove they are. I understand that we as man will never understand the complexity of our Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit is our guide to the truth of what the Bible says and so far the truth that’s been revealed to me is that God the Father comes 1st, Jesus comes 2nd, Holy Spirit comes 3rd, and dragging in the rear comes us. I know the only way to see the Father is to go through Jesus & I need the Holy Spirit to get me there. I may not be the smartest guy out there, but this is how I’m comprehending these recent translations of the Holy scriptures and that most of these assumptions about the trinity are man made assumptions and I’m not buying into it. The truth will be revealed when Jesus returns to reclaim the Kingdom for his Father until then I’ll try to understand the best I can of the written Word we have available to us & trust the Holy Spirit to show me what’s actually true of the Bible & what might have been misinterpreted if any. Anyway, I appreciate your input on the subject & I know this is a very complex subject that can be argued until then end of time & beyond. It is interesting to get other people’s perspectives of how they interpret the Bible, but it boils down to what the Holy Spirit reveals to each one of us as the truth and if we choose to believe it. I do believe that God wants us to question everything because it helps us grow as Christians and in our faith in Him. He knows our hearts and He knows we’re ignorant in a lot of ways, but even if our intelligence and reason is millions of times sub par to His, He still loves us and wants us to constantly seek the Kingdom and Him and eventually the truth will be revealed to us. God Bless and I apologize the response was so long.
Ed Bromfield
January 11, 2012 at 08:58
Greetings David; it was good to find you have responded.
Concerning John 5:17-18, actually you need to read the passage again. The Jews wanted to kill Jesus and the Apostle John says the reason why they wished to kill Jesus was that he—i.e. Jesus—made himself equal with God and broke the Sabbath. It wasn’t simply because the Jewish authorities **thought** Jesus made himself equal with God, but John, the Apostle interprets the statement of Jesus to be admitting equality with God.
Concerning John 5:19, Jesus does what he sees the Father doing, because he can. Can you or I do the same? No, we cannot. We cannot make the blind see, the paralytic walk or the deaf hear etc. Jesus does these things because he can—he is God. He and the Father act as One. The Father commands and Jesus brings it to pass, just as in Genesis 1 for creation. All things were created **through** the One who became Jesus, as John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 tell us. As far as **Almighty** is concerned, there is no power of God that was expressed without going through and expressed by the One who became Jesus. No one can show in the Scriptures where the Father has more power than the One who became Jesus, because all power is expressed **through** him.
Concerning what you honestly believe about the Scriptures being translated, unless you have the original transcripts in your hand and can read them in ancient Hebrew and Greek, your statement is pure conjecture. Either the Scriptures are confusing or they are not. Either the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth by them or he will not. You need to come to some sort of firm conclusion about these things. I have, and I don’t believe what you have written here. Any bias a translator may have is found out through comparison of a number of other translations. All translators do not have the same biases, so truth can be discovered. Moreover, I trust the translators even in expressing biases, did so honestly, and therefore accidentally, if those biases prove untruthful.
Concerning your belief in Jesus as your Lord and Savior and who is Almighty, I have no reason to suspect you haven’t received Jesus as Lord and Savior. I trust you are sincere and truthful in claiming to be one of his. That said, I don’t see your reasoning is sound that Jesus is **not** Almighty. If all the power that we could ever conceive as being expressed has come **through** the One who became Jesus (John 1:3), then how can you say he is not Almighty? Can you conceive of any power that was ever expressed that has not come **through** the One who became Jesus? As for John 14:6, you are being too simplistic. For example, John 1:1 says not only was the Word **with** God (meaning the Father) but he was God (same essence as the Father). This same Word who is God (John 1:1) became man or flesh (John 1:14). Thus the WAY was made between God and his creation. The same WAY to creation (John 1:3; Genesis 1) is the WAY to the Father or God. That is, all that can be understood of God is understood by coming to know Jesus (John 14:9; 17:3). If we want to come to know **God** is it done by knowing Jesus. He is the WAY—and the TRUTH—and the LIFE (cp. 1John 1:2).
Concerning John 6:6-15, I think you are referring to Matthew 6:6-15. There Jesus is not speaking with the disciples about the Father, but is teaching the Apostles how to pray. The **our** would include men and women at prayer. It would not include Jesus among the men and women praying. Later he told us to pray in his name. This would preclude his being included in the **our** address to the Father.
Concerning John 17:1-5, again I believe you are being too simplistic. First, you presume that God must be a singularity, then you interpret the meaning of John 17:1-5. If we let Jesus’ words speak for themselves, what would we find? First, Jesus asks the Father to **glorify** him, – i.e. Jesus (v.1), with the glory he had from the beginning (v.5). Could we ever ask God to glorify us with himself? Jesus is saying he had the Father’s glory—God’s glory—from the beginning. God refuses to share his glory with any man (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11), but Jesus shared in the glory of the Father from the beginning. If he shares in the glory of God, how can he not be God?
Concerning Jesus and the Father not being the same person, neither do I claim they are the same person. They are the same Spirit—the same God—but not the same person. How this is understood is found in Genesis 2:23-24. The man and the woman (together) are the image of God. Just as the man and woman were ONE flesh (one humankind), so too (because they are the **image** of God) the One who became Jesus and the Father are ONE Spirit (one God-kind).
Concerning Jesus being the only way to see God, if you know this to be true—and you admit that you do—then how can Jesus not be God, since God will not have strange gods before him. Hebrews 1:3 tells us that Jesus is the express image of God, and Jesus tells us to see him is to see the Father (God) in John 14:9. It seems to me this would be the height of arrogance for anyone to say unless he was truly God.
I agree that this is a very complex doctrine and it can be argued back and forth for a long time, but I think it is a subject that needs discussion. We owe it to the Lord to take an interest in this issue. I have found the Holy Spirit very active during discussions such as this—at least from my own point of view. I have had to change my perception on several occasions, because I found my understanding wasn’t quite in line with the Scriptures. In my own case, I had to completely separate myself from the training wheels of man’s opinion and trust the leading of the Holy Spirit in the word of God. I cannot speak for others, but I have grown in the knowledge of Christ and of our Father through my willingness to discuss my perception of God with those willing to accommodate. As you have said above, it is a heart matter that God is interested in, not perfect knowledge. Paul tells us in 1Corinthians 13:9-12 that we know only in part at this time. Later we shall know in perfection. Until that day, I shall struggle in all my strength of will, mind and heart with the Holy Spirit, reaching out to know God/Christ (Philippians 3:10, 13), while laying aside all that I had once held dear in my understanding of him. I’ll let him make me new in as much as it pleases him.
Lord bless you and have a good day,
Eddie
P.S. don’t concern yourself with the long posting. I wasn’t at all bothered by it.
David
January 9, 2012 at 11:25
Jesus himself never claimed to be God, he always referenced everything back to his Father (God). For instance John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” He clearly points out that he is not God Himself in this scripture. I think the interpretations of the original scriptures may be a little off in a few areas or we are not seeing the true meaning of what is interpreted. It just takes a little common sense to see that Jesus is not God Himself, but his role is definitely very important to all Christians & is not lessened in any way not being God Himself. He is the son of God, but not God. Another example that Jesus is not God Himself. Matthew 24:36 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. If Jesus was God Himself, don’t you think he would know when he is coming back to us? Come on, a little common sense should be used here. I am a Christian to the end, but I don not agree with the teachings of “the trinity” I believe that all three exist, but they are all three separate, but share the same purpose, but not the same body. Have a Blessed day.
Ed Bromfield
January 10, 2012 at 01:20
Hi, David, and thank you for reading and taking the time to leave a comment. I always enjoy reading what others have to say about the subjects that interest me.
Concerning Jesus **never** claiming to be God, have you ever considered John 5:17-18? There John comes right out and says that Jesus’ claims made himself equal with God—meaning the Father. If he was equal in essence with the Father, how can he not be God? On another occasion Jesus said that both he and the Father were one (John 10:30). The Jewish authorities understood this to be a claim to deity and they tried to stone him. There are others, but have you considered these Scriptures?
Concerning John 20:17, right away a flag should go up when someone reads this Scripture. First of all Jesus is differentiating between us and himself as far as our relationship with the Father is concerned. He is our God, but not in the same way in which he is to Jesus. When speaking with the disciples Jesus never refers to the Father as our Father. It is either THE Father or **my** Father and **your** Father, and in the same way it is **my** God and **your** God. The Father himself calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8 (cp. Psalm 45:6-7). There is nothing in John 20:17 that would cause me to see Jesus as someone less that God, any more than I consider myself less human because my own father had more authority than me when I was growing up, and even later he deserved and received the greater respect from me—but I am his equal as far as being a human being is concerned. The difference was one of authority, not essence.
Concerning Matthew 24:36, that’s a no-brainer! When Jesus became human, he couldn’t possibly retain equal power with the Father. Before he became human the Scriptures say he was equal not only in essence but in power with the Father (Philippians 2:6), but this equality he left behind when he exchanged the form (body) of God with the form (body) of man (Philippians 2:7). As a human he had to grow in knowledge (Luke 2:52), but the same Person who existed in the form (body) of God before his human birth was the very same Person living in the human body on this earth (cp. John 1:1, 14).
Concerning the Trinity, I agree the word is not in the Bible and it probably doesn’t describe God accurately. However, that merely means that man cannot come close to understanding the complexity and greatness of God. Consider for a moment Isaiah 6:1-5. Who did Isaiah see? Didn’t he see God? He claims to have seen YHWH in Isaiah 6:5, yet in John 12:37 the Apostle is speaking of Jesus and says the prophet saw Jesus’ glory (John 12:41). Not only so, but Paul tells us in Acts 28:25-27 that the Holy Spirit spoke to the prophet saying go to the people, but they won’t believe. Paul refers to the very same incident that John refers to in John 12, but instead of saying it referred to Jesus, he speaks of the Holy Spirit. God is not so simply defined by man as singularity, and when we try to define him as a Trinity we completely impersonalize him. The Scriptures give us an image of God in Genesis, but we try to make the image a single person, but the word of God says that God created man—male and female (together) in the image of God. If the image of God is a plurality, how can we describe God as a singularity?
Have to go now, and tomorrow I will be away. Any reply you make to this, I may not be able to return until Wednesday.
Lord bless you, and thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
Eddie